Super Shadows | When Strengths Limit Growth

Nikhyl: Hi, everyone. This is Nikhil Singhal. I'm, uh, their host for the skip podcast. this is one of my favorite topics to cover. Carly, I'm glad you're here. Nice to see you.

Carly: Nice to see you too.

Nikhyl: Carly and I have had this rhythm of taking mailbag episodes of emails that are either fictitious or real and reading them out to you and then kind of going back and forth talking through what's real, what's not real around the emails and how to help this person. And we have something that's inspired by one of my hit episodes, uh, shadows of superpowers. And one big innovation we have in today's episode is we're going to name it super shadows. wrote this article and then I published a couple of podcast episodes. Which went viral on LinkedIn. And a lot of people really liked the application of a pretty simple concept of. Your strengths mask some of your development areas.

and today's episode, I really want to apply it to real world examples and get Carly's take on the concept as well. So we're going to dive right into a mailbag episode and start chatting about it. appreciate everyone's, uh, listening today and I'll turn it over to you, Carly.

Perfect. So I'm excited about this because like you said, you've done so much content necessarily about this, whether it's in written form on podcasts, on your podcast, but here we've created this. AI generated email right of expressing this topic. So I think we can go even deeper about it. So I'm excited.

Carly: We're going to call her Rachel for the sake of this episode, just to, you know, make it smooth for us. So the subject she wrote is quiet career crisis could really use your advice.

Hi, Kel. I've started this email a few times now, trying to find the right words. I trust your perspective and honestly, I just really need someone to talk to. I'm at a weird point in my career, quietly facing a dilemma I never saw. Coming. Throughout my career, I've always been known as the person you hand your toughest problems to when there's a critical initiative stuck or complicated organizational dynamics causing headaches.

Rachel: I'm usually the first person called. My approach has always been the same. Tackle the problem by building strong teams, clearly defining goals and creating an environment where smart people can thrive. At my previous company, this was exactly how we successfully delivered that massive infrastructure overhaul that everyone else thought was impossible.

And here at my current company, I've been promoted multiple times precisely because leadership sees me as dependable. Someone who can turn complexity into clarity. Until very recently, I genuinely believed I was nailing it, but lately something feels off. Don't get me wrong, my performance reviews are still solid, and senior leadership says they still value me highly.

My team remains positive and supportive, but I've started noticing these subtle shifts. The most recent high profile project, which honestly seemed perfectly suited to my team, was assigned to another group without much explanation. When I approached my manager, who's also a good friend, he just mentioned they wanted to load balance the workload.

My gut tells me that's not the full story. And last quarter, rather than trusting my existing team, the company hired externally for a key role, bringing in a super icy from outside. I keep telling myself it's not personal, but it's hard not to feel slighted. I can't help but worry. These are early signs that the company's confidence in me is slipping.

Maybe I'm just imagining it, especially since promotions across the board have slowed significantly and overall company growth is stalling. Still, there's a gut feeling that makes me uneasy if the company decides to reduce head count. Given how tough things are out there right now, I'm suddenly wondering if I'd even be competitive on the open market.

It's a sobering thought. What's really weighing on me is the constant messaging around senior leaders needing to be more hands-on and opinionated. Logically, I understand the reasoning. Fewer layers in the organization means more direct oversight. And with AI handling tasks previously done by junior teams, senior leaders are expected to get deeper into the details, but emotionally, this feels like a step backward.

Didn't I spend years developing a strategic approach precisely to avoid micromanaging details? Wouldn't diving back into those details diminish the autonomy I've carefully cultivated on my teams? It feels regressive, almost like I'm risking becoming the stereotypical middle manager who's in everyone's way.

Even if I wanted to change, I don't know where to begin and feel stuck in neutral. If I'm honest, there's a part of me that just wants to blame the environment. I know it's not particularly constructive, but the industry shifts have felt so abrupt and unfair. One day collaboration and team building are highly valued.

The next, you're told you aren't in the weeds enough. Maybe the pendulum will swing back as AI matures or growth will pick up again, and this issue will resolve itself. Or maybe just, maybe this is all in my head and things aren't nearly as bad as they feel. There are also days when I genuinely wonder if I've just been lucky this whole time.

Maybe I'm not as good as I always believed. It's that awful imposter feeling quietly whispering in my ear, and it's made me feel stuck in neutral, unsure how to move forward. I also worry that if change is genuinely needed, it would be much better to address it now rather than during a job search. But acknowledging that only makes this feeling of being stuck even scarier and more urgent.

I haven't been able to openly discuss this with anyone at work. How can I without seeming weak or uncertain? So I wanted to ask, have you seen others navigate this shift? Can I adapt without abandoning the leadership style that's brought me success until now? And if I really do need to dive deeper into the details, how can I do that authentically without undermining the autonomy and trust I've spent years building?

Thanks so much for hearing me out. It means a lot, truly.

Carly: it's a meaty, meaty email that we just covered.

Nikhyl: Yeah, and I got it. I guess I get a couple of goals today. I think my goal one was trying to capture the sentiment of what I feel like a lot of people in industry are feeling. And so hopefully, when you heard this note, people are like, Wow, that's me. You know, I feel the same way. I'm stuck in the same way There's a challenge I think is worth addressing. And then the 2nd thing is, my goal is to make sure that you, Carly can actually be. have all the tools to answer this question, like how should we help Rachel and if we can achieve that in today's episode, I'll be stoked because I think it will help a lot of people out there.

Carly: Amazing. So, let's just dive right into it. Cause when I first see this email, when I read it, even again, there are key themes at play here that I see that Rachel is dealing with. On the one hand, She is seeing, the first maybe instance in her career where everything that led her to success is now the very thing that's actually, you know, holding her back.

And what's also just fascinating is that The words that she's getting from leadership from performance reviews is saying one thing, but the actions are saying another right like she didn't get, you know, the high profile project they've hired externally for something that she probably should have done and yet, you know, her management is still saying, you're doing well, don't worry.

let's even start there, Nikkel, like what, is that a common sentiment? Is that something you see a lot? And how do you navigate that?

Nikhyl: Yeah, well, I would say that it's absolutely the case that people reach a point where they're stuck for the first time. And usually it's around the time that they're in leadership. And so even your note that, Hey, maybe what got me here isn't what gets me forward, isn't always evident to even people that have coached that in others.

what often happens is they are hitting a. Issue for the first time, and that's when they're in this sort of, Hey, I've in the past just sort of crushed it. I've been going with sort of one lane, but I've been the fastest person in that lane. And now I feel like I'm hitting like quite a traffic jam.

And then to your point, the second issue is they don't always know if it's real. Because in leadership, there's so many dynamics at play, you know, even in this note, what she's saying is I've gotten some feedback that seems positive. I'm not moving like I used to, but I have this spidey sense that something's off.

And, Some people feel like, well, maybe I'm just being paranoid boy. You know, the company's not doing as well as it used to. It's the first time we've had a challenge. Maybe I'm taking it personally. There's all these things that go through someone's head. So you're stuck for the first time and getting at best inconclusive or inconsistent signal.

And in fact, the way the note was written, it's like. When I've kind of asked and pulled on this, I get everything's fine. like in a relationship where you kind of know something's off, but then everyone says, no, no, no, there's nothing. And you can't tell what's true, what's real. She's got a friend and a boss.

So maybe the boss would be more likely or less likely to be forthcoming. So this whole thing is just super messy. And that's just common. It's like nothing is conclusive and nothing is quite as it seems. And maybe it's all going to be okay. And that's where we start here.

Carly: So even off of that, Rachel even said, right? It seems there's somewhat of like a gut instinct here. Something feels off. She mentioned the word feeling off, even though like there are things that, that kind of support her. Do you think based off of this story, having been a manager, Do you think that her gut instinct is right, though?

Like, is that weird, all the things that are happening? And is this something that she should really consider heavily and make changes?

Nikhyl: I would say yes, part of the reason I say yes is that I would say that you should trust your gut that when you feel like something might be off, particularly when increasingly she feels like she's practicing product management in this example, in a way that might not be common and this idea that projects are going elsewhere.

These are signals That are worth paying attention to. I'm not saying that every time you think something's off, it's off. But I'm saying every time you think something's off, particularly as a leader, you should go check, which is kind of where I start. And I think there's a lot of people that are listening to this that have these insecurities or anxieties or mixed signals.

And I think that the 1st place you should check is, If your strength areas are causing some setback, that's the super shadow concept, and you've got to be super diligent that those superpowers by default. Create a development concern. So unless you're fairly advanced in the application of your strength, you are probably going to have this shadow.

And so if you're getting some mixed signals or have anxiety, first place you go, as you say, let me go through my checklist of superpowers. Let me go through my checklist of what that could cause, and let me make sure that it's not in my way. that's the biggest and most important piece of coaching that we can provide here.

Carly: before we go much deeper into super shadows, this new concept, if you will, or at least, you know, super powers and shadows, I actually want to know, given your experience, and I know this is kind of going off a bit, but given your experience in senior leader roles, have you ever, done that, meaning that, you know, maybe someone isn't performing as well, or they're not adapting to what's new.

And instead, you're going to say like, look, I don't want to confront it. Like, maybe they can change, but instead I'm going to try be like, you know, we're just loading your balance right now. things are still good. Like, have you ever had to, because you don't want to confront it? Or like, what's been that position like coming from a senior leader?

Nikhyl: Oh, all the time. So here's the classic example. As a manager, you have someone in your team that's doing great your goal as a manager isn't necessary to hire everyone that looks the same. You might want to have someone who's strong in one area and then another one that's strong.

Another. So your goal is not to hire Wonder Woman or Superman. Your goal is to hire the super friends because then you have a diverse enough team that you can go and solve lots and lots of problems. Well, with that diversity, everybody. You might have someone who's like super opinionated and that person is the person you go to for like, we're not really sure how to get this new thing off the ground.

We need someone with really strong product judgment and that person's like, okay, let me go into a dark room, come back two weeks later and kind of walk you through what I think now. That person, of course, is failing to be collaborative, which means whatever comes back after that two week escapade, everyone's going to naturally have a, you know, allergic reaction to because they weren't part of the process.

They're not involved. And so as a manager, you have to judge. Is that an okay starting point and now we start bringing in others or does the process needs to evolve because you're no longer, you know, supporting like a founder type person you need to integrate but. Early on, you're like, no, no, no, no.

Don't worry. This is necessary. And there's countless stories of projects that came back where there was a very small team and they just did something and it was independent and it worked. So you're kind of in this protection mode, but when you get all this feedback, which is like, well, we feel like this person sort of on their own page, we're not involved.

You're sort of in first protection explanation, but eventually. When you get into a point where it starts to like go further and further that there's a brand and then there's a real development area and clearly to be able to be opinionated and independent, it's going to come at the cost of collaboration.

So, you know, when is it enough to sort of say, Hey, let's do something different. Even if it comes to slowing down, it's better to bring people along. all managers want their strong players to practice their superpowers, but it always ends up. Causing some echo effect. And so the best approach is to sort of modulate those as a manager, as opposed to protect, otherwise, eventually you'll end up getting something caught up.

Carly: No, that's super interesting. So in a way, like, Rachel's very attuned to, you know, being aware of what's happening. And if anything, it may be coming where you have more of like the real conversation. But right now she's kind of picking up on these signals that are happening external to what she's hearing.

Nikhyl: Well, and I think just building on your point though, her manager is getting more good than bad. Her manager's got someone who has done well in the company. Her manager is getting someone who delivers and can deliver and is a critical member of the team. Like her manager is not sitting down and saying, I think the next layoff, you know, Rachel's on the target list, but she's no longer growing.

and then for the manager's case, a great manager would come in and say, Hey, listen, though, you're doing well, we need to sort of rethink to get you to the next level, your approach, which will be a difficult conversation because we'll go through that conversation here and it'll be a, Oh, well, you need to change where your strengths come from and how you apply it.

So most managers are just like, not inclined to have that conversation. It's like, look, I'm getting enough here. I don't get paid. For unlocking Rachel to the next set of levels, I get paid to bring in others that can surround Rachel and, you know, Rachel probably is like, well, how come I'm not getting promoted?

It's like, well, you don't have the skill and it's like, well, how come we didn't work on that? It's like, well, I didn't need you to, right? That's that's the natural approach to management. So Rachel. As you said, has a spidey sense. Something's off and she's stalling out, but it's unlikely anyone's going to work with her on this.

She needs to have the agency to do it herself. And that's why people came to me so many times in my career who weren't working for me. And they're like, I feel stuck. And I would go through, like, let me understand your superpowers. Like, did you look in these shadows? And they'll be like, Oh, that could be actually the case.

And they're like, I'm so glad I looked. Once I looked, I found all these issues, but no one ever pointed them out. And I'm like, bingo. That's what happens when leaders are doing well, but they're stalling out. It's easier when things are just broken. It's much harder when it's when you're doing well and you're getting stuck.

Carly: This is great because even that that takeaway alone, that may seem obvious to you, but even the fact that Rachel is responsible, like she needs to take the agency to say, let me go deep into my shadows and say, okay, what do I need to improve in order to start seeing, you know, I should be getting the high profile project and you know, they shouldn't have to be hiring externally and whatnot.

So, That makes a lot of sense. So let's now focus on This concept of super shadows. And before we even get into that, I want to give you my concept of how I understand it. In the sense of Rachel, Her strength has been to tackle problem by building strong teams and clearly defining goals and almost just having this trust in her team to say, go, go take off.

You guys can do this delegating and building this trust with them. Right. And that's what seems to be your strength, and it has gotten her promoted. So it's worked very well. And she can almost take these complex problems and clearly define them, distill them down for her team. But now she's at this crossroads

But with this new adoption of AI, that's kind of removed some, you know, junior teams. And now with these fewer layers in the organization, almost a reorg, she now has to have a bigger Right. Opinion, let's say, or at least be more hands on more opinionated and almost stand on her own two feet when it comes to action.

And I think she's not necessarily used to that or isn't familiar with that because she's more used to delegating. I'm going to stop there. Is that something? Would you add anything or take away from just Rachel situation?

Nikhyl: No, I think you nailed it. I think you nailed the basics of like her challenge and her situation. I think that the subtlety that I would just point out in the node that we received is she's stuck in mindset. Because of this, and so when you listen to the note, it's like, Hey, I've got this feedback.

I've had this strength. I think there may be a concern. And normally, if it was like, you need to learn X, she's had the agency and the capability to kind of run it down. But for the 1st time, she's not getting clear signal as we've discussed, and she's like, I don't yeah. Feel like I have agency to go solve this problem.

And I think this is very common when people feel stuck. They're not just stuck because they're not clear where they need to go, but they're stuck because any changes seem to be counter. To their strength areas, right? So in her case, she's not stupid, right? She's seeing all these notes around.

You need to get hands on. You need to become a super, I see yourself. You need to have opinion. These are not like shockingly new comments that when, you know, she reads something and any of these content sources because of, you know, the efficiency of product management, she's like, okay, that's what I need to do.

And she just starts doing it. I think. If she does it, it's like, isn't this a step backwards? Doesn't this mean that I'm now in the way of my team when I was like, so strong and giving them space, I don't want to become an average person.

Who's a good manager and a good IC. I want to deleverage my superpowers. So if I keep pushing on this new thing and I dilute my strengths, that seems just as bad as me trying to not worry about it and practicing just my strength, right? The balancing here feels off to me. So I got to retain my strength.

So that's why I'm stuck.

Carly: actually, Nikkel, I realize for people who maybe have not heard, you know, your previous episode about shadows and superpowers, and I've not read your content. Can you give a very, you know, one liner what it is and then we'll dive deeper into it.

Nikhyl: There's a set of people who have strengths, then there's a smaller set of people that have superpowers, which are like top 1 percent application of strength. In this example. Rachel is someone who's not just a good manager, but is an outstanding manager, outstanding defined by she's been employed by some of the best companies and she's been promoted quickly and she's done very well and she's found herself in an early part of career in leadership.

So these, this is an example of like this person's maybe world class or, you know, top 5 percent or however you want to characterize it. Those folks often have very hidden development areas, development areas that rarely come through clean feedback, development areas that are often hidden, or that are couched or that are very subtle and Because the person is unclear, because, as I said, changes would require them to change their strengths because often the feedback is dismissed because of their strength, then what happens is to rise in leadership.

They end up stalling out, and they stall out because of what got them here, leveraging their superpower. Is it enough to just keep them going? Because they're sort of this one trick pony. They're like, Oh, we go to that person when we need a big team to be managed and solve a problem and collaborate across the organization.

We don't use them when we need to do something new, or we need to do something detailed. And as the industry shifts towards one or the other, the person can find themselves looking on the outside in. And so this is the concept of your development areas. Your shadows often come from the super strengths and the superpowers you have.

And that sort of combination then makes it very hard to take action and grow. And so our job is to shine a light on those shadows and then figure out how to go and address them without diluting your strength, right? That's the art of all this. And that's why this is so subtle and so difficult.

Carly: have so many questions, but even off of that point, What is the goal if a manager or any employee, you know, here is this right now? Is this something that should be proactive? That before you start to use your spidey senses to see that something is maybe shifting? Should people already start to see what is my super shadow?

And should I develop that as well as my superpower? Like, how do you, when does it actually become most useful?

Nikhyl: Well, first of all, I think people should be self aware of their strengths and maybe how high quality they are. And so, first, I would just say everyone listening yourself included should just have a pretty good assessment of like, where do you feel like you have unusual capability?

And then I think to your exact point. I think as you identify those, just as much as you should be going through the math of how do I explore and exploit, right? So what you definitely should do, you go to me for X, give me problems that are in X because I will rise quickly and I will be the right person to solve them.

So this makes perfect sense. You should just be as aware of, hey, that type of skill that I have comes with some baggage. So as I go through exploring, exploiting and using my strength, I'm going to keep a very vigilant eye on the classic development area that person like me would have.

Now, I'm not going to assume I have it. Perhaps I'm just very good at, you know, applying it in the right subtle way. Perhaps I'm willing to ignore it for now, like, Hey, I'm a super opinionated leader, and I'm just going to keep being opinionated and not being collaborative and not bring people along because that's kind of the stage of company or that's kind of what's needed right now.

And I'm going to take, the good and hope that the bad won't get up with me. But by being vigilant and aware, you end up like avoiding a situation where coming out of left field, you have, Very crazy feedback. You get passed over. You have an abrupt ending all these things again. They're all hidden But the way to be vigilant is to sort of always have the flashlight out looking and verifying and getting feedback and being like You know intentional about not worrying about the shadow or by developing the strength in a way that doesn't create the shadow

Carly: And are you saying that, you know, with superpowers, it's almost that yes, it helps them and, you know, gets them promoted or whatnot. But when it's overused or misapplied, that very superpower can become their weakness or blind spot.

And that is ultimately their super shadow. Or is it more of the concept that, as leaders, we have these superpowers. That's what got us to where we are today. But at the same time, we have, you know, a separate Transcribed Super shadow that's happening, you know, similar to what you said. If you're very opinionated that maybe you're not as collaborative.

how do you reconcile those 2?

Nikhyl: Yeah, so i'm hearing from the question is Is the concept that your strengths will blind you from all development areas, or is it that your strengths come with a specific development area? And both probably could be true. The first is more common. It's more understood. It's like some people are really good at X because there's so much strength in the area that they have, they can ignore all the other feedback. And then I think that one you tend to see a lot more feedback around. It's like, look, you tend to, be really good in this one area, but then there's these three other things that you perhaps, are, aware of, but you're not working on, right?

That to me is a more common leadership, situation. The more challenging situation is when the feedback doesn't come because sort of like inherent to the strength. It's like, look, you're super opinionated. Clearly, you're not going to be collaborative in the traditional sense. So often you won't get a lot of collaboration feedback.

It'll just be like, that's just part of how you need to operate. But Underneath the covers. A lot of people find that to be jarring behavior and yet they hold back. And so my suggestion in this episode and this concept of super shadows is the areas of development that are very hidden That are the most difficult to address are the ones that are so connected to your strength. Not that this person is super well regarded because they're so awesome. They get, it's more of the actual like strength is the one that is creating the development area. That's the one that's gnarly and the knot that you have to untie.

Carly: Okay. And a good example in that specific one is kind of what you just mentioned, right? Is if someone comes in and they, their strength or superpower is just being very opinionated, being very decisive. And at a fault is that there may be not as collaborative with the team.

Nikhyl: Correct. And then let's flip it. Let's do the exact opposite. Someone's super collaborative, but people don't know where they stand. But they're like, well, my goal is to represent the team. You know, I, and that's kind of what's happening here at Rachel, or let's take another one. Someone who's super analytical and very data driven.

When it comes to solving problems, and so they are the type of person you go to when there's tons and tons and tons of information out there to be able to make thoughtful data driven decisions, but then they don't get put on projects. Where opinion matters, where you have to be more decisive, where you can't get a lot of data.

And it turns out that a lot of leaders have to practice both. So this person's now kind of unintentionally pigeonholed as the data person or the analytical person. Oh, you wouldn't put him on something creative. And that person's like, wait, how come I don't get those projects? And it's like, well, because you don't show this That's still stupid because it's not data driven. I'm like, Hmm, you know, welcome to the problem here. Right. So that's, that's the kinds of issues we were hitting.

Carly: So it's interesting because as you describe it more when I think of those earlier in their career, right? It seems even more relevant to say like, yes, you have strengths, but make sure that you can at least be very, you know, coachable and learn and find your super shadows, if you will, and really touch on them.

Because if anything, like you have a bigger. pool of what teams you can join. You could be adaptable, but it seems like, and I think I've, I've heard this narrative too, is that once you, you know, start to go up the ranks, you'd be, you're promoted, you start to become a senior leader. It's very clear, like, this is your strength and just run with it.

Like, there's totally a narrative out there, which is like, just focus on your strength. Don't focus on your weakness at all. And you're super shadows. Do you fundamentally disagree with that narrative? And do you think the stage of your career plays a role in how you should approach it?

Nikhyl: I think the stage of career plays a big role. I think that, you know, we want to be world class. People that are excellent do much, much better than people that are broadly average, my career advice is find your superpower, do as much as you can to develop it. Then look for the shadows, start addressing them as you start to see success with your strength. Perhaps your strength has to be adjusted early because you, for example, are so non collaborative because you're so opinionated that you can't get anywhere.

But this conversation for leaders is much more around. You've been successful. So what often I want to see is people really nailing it with their strengths. And usually the issue isn't like horribly egregious, right? So it's like if we go to Rachel and say, well, what do you think we should do? She's not going to just be like, I don't know.

I got to go check with my team. If that happened, she wouldn't have gotten promoted. The issue is more like she's become a master at one type of skill, and she's starting to basically stall probably 10 12 years in career, probably when she's had multiple wins, successes, and things. So that's why this is more of a mid career comment.

Of course, if you're trying to explore your strength, and there's these development areas that are associated with it, you should be working on it. But the hard part is when you've been successful. And then when everyone's like, that's great, you should keep doing that. That's when you really are going to struggle when there's these subtle adjustments that need to be made, which is exactly what's happening in this conversation with Rachel, because Rachel's like, I'm doing well, but I'm seeing that I'm not maybe doing as well.

The industry is defining product differently. My company is starting to see things differently. I might need to adjust, but nobody is telling me that directly. And if they did, I think we would have been in that earlier stage that you mentioned.

Carly: Okay. No, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. And it almost applies so well to mid management because like you said, she's slowly starting to stall, right? Like there may be a point where she doesn't go up, she doesn't go down. She's just at this plateauing where, you know, if she doesn't make a change, then it's likely to just plateau.

Nikhyl: can even take it a step further. She's like, if I entered the job market, I think I'm screwed. Right. That's a big, big signal. Because to me, it's like, maybe the company is slowing down. So it's not actually That relevant to the company that she needs to change, but the fact that she's like, I'm pretty sure I've become this middle manager that everyone talks about as needing to shift out of the companies.

So if I find myself not having the reputation of being in this example, opinionated and hands on, it's probably career limiting. I think personally doing so is like the kind of thing that I would expect from my team, not myself. So that's where I'm like super confused. Like how do I end up building those skills and continuing to be a good manager, right?

that comment is very common across all of these shadows. Like if we go back and we're like, But if I start being opinionated, How could I be fully collaborative if I'm going to start being creative and look at things from my gut, how in the world is that going to square with me being very, analytical, right?

So That's when we know we have a super shadow is when the development requires a rebuild of your strength. And that's when people are like. No, does not compute feedback, not coming, et cetera. It's that circle that we're looking for.

Carly: And it's so interesting because it seems like the feedback, right, where being more hands on and more opinionated, like that seemed to just, you know, kind of elicit some reaction in Rachel, where like she hasn't done that in a while, or what does that look like?

Nikhyl: right. It is almost like she's intentionally not done this to develop her strength,

and now she's worried that If she goes and does it, it will potentially be a step backwards. It also is sort of creates this sense of imposter, right? So that's the dark part of it. It's like, maybe my whole career was a farce.

Maybe I went the wrong way on the highway. Maybe I was like fine for five years, but now I realize, crap, now I built a strength that is no longer valuable. And I'm really worried about that, right? So that's the reason why when you're stuck and you feel like this is a really difficult bridge to cross, you start questioning everything, not just your manager, the company, the environment, but even your own success, right?

That's a pretty dark place to be.

Carly: for sure. That's such a key underlying theme here, right? I think for her, it's a matter of even if she does change and become more of, you know, stand on her own two feet, doesn't delegate to her team. I think there's this fear of like, will my opinions be good?

You know, like I, I think she just hasn't done it in a, in a while, it seems, or at least she's, you know, and so she's trying to hide it maybe with all the, the industry shifts and everything. So it's quite interesting. before you give advice to Rachel of what is next, what should she do?

I want to know one thing that Rachel said is the industry shifts have felt so abrupt and unfair. What are your thoughts about that?

Nikhyl: Well, I think it's an interesting question because the implication I think is that hey, I was doing fine and then the environment changed like the rules of the game have changed And that feels wrong that feels off that feels like unfair and my Observation when I coach people through this is you probably would have hit this issue eventually, no matter what.

And it's so helpful to think of it that way. It's so helpful to say, you know what, if I have agency, it's easier for me to think that the problem I'm hitting is not this specific company or this era. Where we have a little bit more efficiency and management is less of a valued skill, it's more important to say, eventually my management style needs to change in this example, for me to be an effective leader.

And I won't be able to change unless I start. Proactively seeking what's the challenge? What type of changes do I need to make, et cetera. But what's unhealthy is for the person to be resistant stock or blaming the environment. when I hit this the 1st time in my career, where I realized that the blind spot.

That I was grow was very connected to the strength that I was applying. Once I saw that and I addressed it, then I just started to apply it much more consistently and much more proactively. And then instead of feeling like I was stuck, I was like, Oh, this is just part of developing that strength.

Right. When you think about it as like, Hey, the advanced version of team management is to lead from the front, but to ensure that your team is involved, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Both of these can be true. And then they're like, Oh, okay. But I don't know how to do that.

Solve. Now they're like, Oh, I can build skill. Maybe I just need to adjust. I got it. So that's what you're looking for. But the thing that blocks people isn't like, I have literally no idea how to apply both of these at the same time. It's like, I refuse to apply both of these at the same time because I didn't know up until now and it worked fine.

Right. That's what we're looking for.

Carly: And it seems like if you do focus on your super shadow, right, and really like scrape away and focus on that, it's not like your super power diminishes. Like, you still have that and you've proven that it's successful.

Nikhyl: You have to prove that to yourself. I think there's dramatic fear that, you know, Hey, I'm a hard driving worker. I deliver everything ahead of schedule and I work crazy hours. And then we realize that the team that's around you is burning out and has resentment. And when I say that, Hey, you need to be able to take a little bit off.

They're like, well, that can't be done. I don't I refuse to do that. so most people do think it's going to come at the expense. But then the question is like, well, how do you make space for others that aren't necessarily able to achieve what you're able to achieve? And are you really that productive?

When you're pushing that hard or is that just poor efficiency, you know, are you leveraging other resources? Because at some point, you're not going to scale. They're like, okay, fair. I'm probably leveraging a strength maybe to my disadvantage. Yeah, I don't think I need to completely diluted, but by shifting it, I can take advantage of that supply in a more thoughtful way.

Uh, now we see how this is the advanced version of, being able to practice force. Okay. Not the intermediate version, but I thought I was in advance, but I'm actually an intermediate, right? Often these leaders have all the skills to develop whatever they want It's just they never see it or they don't understand how to have the right mindset to approach it If you get the right mindset, you kind of start on the downhill.

That's what we're trying to get to

Carly: And is the common reaction, say you didn't talk to Rachel, right? And most people that you coach say, you know, if they didn't have your insights, what is the most natural path that people take? Is it blaming the environment? And so they switch jobs so they can still use their strength and maybe, you know, it'll probably show up again.

Or what do you think is the most common path and where should they, you know, kind of avert that?

Nikhyl: Most common thing is they stall out permanently or they grow very, very slowly, or they work in organizations that only interested in that strength, Very rarely do I see people. That are self aware enough to say, Hey, I think I need to, rework some of my strength. Usually it's like this company sucks.

wasn't sucking before, but now it sucks and it sucks because they don't see me anymore or they're not growing as fast as I am. Or, you know, this recent work change brought some people that don't respect what I bring to the table and then they moved to a second company. And then they end up getting stuck again.

And then they're like that company sucks too. And they don't see me like I used to be seen. And then, and this keeps going. And then eventually they'll come to a conversation and they'll say, I hate this industry, or I feel like, I need to invest elsewhere, or maybe this is just as far as I can go.

I'll spend time with them. And in our conversation, the first thing I'll do is I'll be like, walk me through your career, they'll tell me all these things. And I'm like, Oh, it sounds like you're really good at this. I wonder if you're, you've ever had to work on this other thing. And I'm like, literally like almost, I can just mirror image.

Like I've been doing in this episode, like the strength implies you probably struggle here. And then we explore that and they're like, yeah it's true. Actually, I'm probably not great at that. I'm like, well, you know, do you think that the leader that you want to be, needs to be good at both? they're like, yeah, probably.

I'm like, Hmm, there you go. That's your problem. And they're like, Oh my God, I've been working on this thing for like 10 years. It never occurred to me that I can do this other thing. And I'm like, yeah, dude, you're not fully baked. It's just like, you need to adjust. Like we're not fully baked. The more we're fully baked, you're more, you're screwed.

Like you have to adjust. That's how we grow as leaders is you take your strengths, you leverage them, and then you adjust them. That's what you have to do. That last piece is what people just completely forget because they've been so successful with it.

Carly: and you're often the first person where you're opening their eyes to this or ears to this where they're hearing it.

Nikhyl: It depends. It depends on the situation. I mean, I think that, you know, sometimes the therapist in their life will be able to help them through it. sometimes they'll be managers who are good enough to say like, Hey, I think this comes with some areas that you might want to look at.

But for the most part, people don't actually start with this as their issue. They start with the environment and they're stuck. Sounds like they want to involve their careers or whatever. And they never even look here, I guess, is the point.

Carly: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's all this like fluff that you can kind of blame, if you will,

Nikhyl: Correct. Nobody ever starts in the near strengths as the reason why you need a strange like nobody who that's the last place people look, I guess, is the point, right? Why would you?

Carly: So,

okay, let's go back to Rachel. What advice would you give Rachel in this situation?

Nikhyl: Yeah, so I think that we've covered like part one, which is pay attention that when you're feeling stuck, it's probably for reals. Pay attention that your strengths might be the place where they're causing challenge and start to do the math between, hey, if I'm a great team builder, my guess is I'm probably not great at doing things hands on or being opinionated.

And I don't think that that's like super shocking for everyone that's listening to this, that they're like, if that's me and what's the Yang, what's my doppelganger. I think most people would be like, Hmm, they can put it into chat GPT. It'll tell you exactly what will most likely be your development area.

This is not the hard part. The hard part is now figuring out how to get feedback.

Do I struggle with this and does it matter? Now, if you assume that your manager and others are unlikely to give you the signal directly, this is the culprit. So what I want everyone to do is write down the shadow according to their superpower and then go and check aggressively open the door.

What I mean by that is like, hey, I think I have strength when it comes to managing people. But what I'm nervous about is that my opinion is often. Taking a backseat that I often am too high level. That is a generic comment for anyone that has this strength. It is not a direct observation on my own. I want to directly ask you my team, my peer, my boss, the leadership.

Do you think this is a true statement? And if so, what extent? Okay, up until now, a lot of people might have felt. That this is actually a concern, but they don't feel like they have permission because the strength is so good. And because like, why bother Right. This is the you're doing great, but you could do better.

People don't do that. It's a very unlikely that you'll get that feedback. So now when you say, Hey, I'm opening the door on this specific thing of feedback doesn't matter. And does it exist? My hunch is it will exist by definition, but to what extent how critical it is, will help, her feel like this is either worth acting on or it's actually not an issue and there's something else.

So what we're trying to do is open up the gate. On that type of feedback, what I've noticed is when you start asking people, Hey, I think I might have this challenge, you'll get a ton of signal on it. And most likely you have it in some level and when you have it in some level, now you need to sit and think about, okay.

How do I take action on improving this concern without diluting the superpower? Advancing my strength as opposed to diminishing my strength to address it, right? second step to this is after you think you have an area to go check on. Go check on it. Do not say to me, Hey, I haven't gotten feedback that says that because by definition, you're never going to get this feedback unless you're in the rare 1 percent of, companies that are able to develop their leaders.

And most of the time their leaders are like, Hey, you're doing fine. I don't want to mess with it.

Carly: Okay, potential challenge, or at least like a pushback that comes into my mind. I very much understand going to your team, or at least like people below you or equal to you. But going to your boss seems a bit scary. And the reason why I say that is, what if he or she didn't think about that as a weakness, and now you're almost giving them this weakness that you may have.

Does that make sense? Like, is there something to consider there?

Nikhyl: There's a degree of vulnerability you need to have, but my guess is that if your boss is like, I don't have any sense that that exists, keep in mind your boss, as an example, might be as guilty of being blinded by the superpower as you. Certainly when you ask me, like people in your past. Have you been reluctant to give feedback?

Not only have I been reluctant to give feedback, sometimes it's my blind spot as well. But while this person is so great in this, of course, they're going to have some edges. And, you know, those edges I think are passable because I'm very in the, in the context and I'm really involved, but people outside the organization.

Are like, I can't say I'm working with this person. In fact, this came up this week. I was managing someone in my past. They had an incredible superpower of building things aggressively, getting things done, being opinionated, but they were not the most collaborative person. And in fact, in some cases, they, you know, really struggle with certain relationships, certain people.

And, you know, I kind of swept it under the rug because it's like, yeah, those people are a little bit dopey as well. I'm not a big fan of them, you know, just ignore them, whatever. And now the person years later is like looking for a new role and they can't get much, you know, connection. There's no chemistry, there's no confidence.

From her Pearson because they didn't feel like they enjoyed the interactions years later. So that's an example where it's like not only my blind spot, but it's also, of course, her blind spot. And so what I wish I had done is been more thoughtful about managing that shadow back then, but I didn't think it was as big of a deal either.

So. In the conversation with the boss, it might be like, look, I'm actually not as interested in your opinion. I just need you to check on this across the way. Like how severe is this concern? Like you don't think it's a big deal. I don't think it's a big deal, but I'm also nervous that this is going to catch up to me.

So given that this shadow is pretty common, let's go check to see how dark it is. It turns out, Oh my gosh, I did check and you were right. And I'm like, It turns out that probably would have screwed your career. I wish I'm glad you asked me to check. And I'm like, Oh my God, like, that sounds really important.

So this is the kind of thing that I encourage people to do is have some agency because your manager may not be predisposed to give this either. it's not a deserving that person. It's, it's, it's more directly around your long term career.

Carly: Amazing. So again, Rachel has the agency. And then, if anything, like you said, you're opening the floodgates. You're opening the environment. You're accepting it. Whereas before, people are probably hesitant to Correct. You're

Nikhyl: giving permission. That's exactly right. And you are giving permission to others.

Carly: And then, so what, what's next? What's next after, you know, you get that feedback and maybe it's affirming what you think is your super shadow. Yeah.

Nikhyl: of is like, once you get the feedback, you have to make a decision on whether you want to address it. it might be one of those things where it's like, I just think that this is a small enough signal that, you know, hey, it comes with the bad. I mean, I'm sure that people that have legendary strengths in our industry, you know, takes Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, or, you know, any of the Bill Gates or any of these folks that are legends.

We all know what the shadows were associated with their superpowers and their superpowers are amazing. So their shadows are substantive. And the question is, in some cases, they felt like there was so much positive signal. It just was fine to not adjust it. And that might be the case for you. Sometimes your strength areas may be so, so good That like, for example, let's say your opinion is really, really good.

You're so right. So many times that you can just keep going to it. But what happens when you're wrong, That's when things go real dark, real fast. Well, some of these people, they had so much power and so much control that they were. It was fine for being wrong, they can get away with it, but if it's not your company, it's not entirely clear that you can get away with it.

So you have to decide whether it's worth addressing. And then you have to have this mindset that addressing it is going to be an enhancing your strength. Not a pulling back. This is where all the books talk about. You have to have soft skills and all this other good stuff. This is where it comes in. The self awareness piece, the EQ piece of self awareness comes into being able to spot things or read between the lines on feedback.

The ability to change. and have a growth mindset is something that's many leaders stop doing because they feel like they've succeeded and they're baked. You know, I had a person in my career that I, when I was working for them, they, at one point I gave them some feedback. I'm like, look, your approach doesn't bring out the best in a lot of us.

You know, I think that you tend to be very political and very focused. On your opinion and doesn't leave a lot of space for others. And I think that we would get a better product if we all felt like we were, you know, equally engaged and we had an equal stake in it. and the person's response was at my age, I'm baked.

You need to adopt to my style. And I thought I was like surprised. I mean, of course, I was a very jarring conversation. But on the other hand, I was like thinking I was like. incredibly unattractive quality in other human being someone who feels like they no longer want to change and evolve, like, why is life worth living if it's just about staying in your lane and never changing I just sort of listened to that and I'm like, but I can see why when a person's been so successful, they would be so reluctant to even commit to themselves.

They need to change. So, okay, mindset. exists. Now what people do are like, great, I need to be like, super hands on and in the weeds. And then they just like, do the work of their teams and stay up late. I'm like, well, that wasn't actually the guidance. The guidance was you need to have some percentage of an adjustment.

So my advice in this case is to pick a small area to practice a new way. instead of starting with, Hey, I'm going to be turning it over a new leaf. I'm going to try reinventing my style to say, look for 80 percent of the work I do. I'm going to continue the same way, but for this one project, this one area, I'm going to do something differently.

I'm going to be more engaged, more hands on, more opinionated. It's more of a partnership with my team than a delegation with my team in this example.

And in this case, when they do it, they signal to everyone, that's what they're doing. Hey, in this project, I want to try a different way of operating.

Carly: So make it known.

Nikhyl: Make it known.

I want feedback as to whether or not I'm doing it in an effective way. I want feedback from my team. So if they, I have this fear that I'm going to take the oxygen out of the room because I'm the one representing it. Team might actually say, this is great. We feel like you were too distant from us.

And we felt like delegation is great, but then in some way it was almost like disconnect and we could use help. We could use help in solving problems that only you were in a position to solve, but you don't have enough context. You're like, Oh my God, I never realized that was the case. And you do this in 20%, you keep iterating and adjusting your style.

Like any product manager, you sort of try it in the small. Get it to a place that you like and then start rolling it out across your leadership style. My experience is if a leader is good enough to have this challenge and be so successful and have it, they very quickly start adapting because it's a known thing to have the right mindset, et cetera.

And people love when they're working on this type of thing. They feel like it's an attractive quality under human being to try to say, look, I've been successful and I want to evolve. Everyone's like, I'm on your side of the table, including the management, et cetera. So that's where you want to recruit and do this before you enter the job market in Rachel's case.

Carly: Is there a reason to be explicit about it? So I understand the value of feedback. So right, like you get direct feedback, but I can also understand like everything you described. It does take a certain level of vulnerability and also like putting your ego aside. which I think is not easy per se for a lot of people.

So what is the power of making an explicit? How do you kind of deal with that?

Nikhyl: have captured in that one sentence why people don't do this. It is not because they don't have the capability of evolving or they can't find the shadow or they don't know how to create the skill. It is because they don't have the mindset, the vulnerability and the openness to change.

That's fricking scary. And That is why every leadership textbook talks about the importance of soft skills. My point is not to just preach soft skills be important because that's clearly important. It's soft skills are important because you need to reinvent yourself along the way of being a great leader and it's going to require you to adjust your strengths.

That second part of the sentence of soft skills be important is what causes people to get stuck. When I found people that have weak, soft skills, they have this challenge. I was interviewing someone and eventually passed on the person and everyone. In the group that was interviewing that individual was like, This person is such a crazy problem solver.

Like in the interview, we presented him the most complex problems. And even with little context, his approach was superior to the ones we were using. And I passed on the candidate. And They were like, why would you pass on someone who can solve so much? And I'm like, because I feel this person is going to be incredibly difficult to partner with, because they have almost no soft skills.

They were really struggling with. Being able to partner and work with others. It was like, here's how I solve it. The other people aren't that good, or they're not the right people. this is a total meritocracy. It was so aggressive in nature. I'm like, that's just not the culture we want.

Interestingly enough, I gave them this feedback. directly. I said that I worry that your soft skills will not allow you to work in a collaborative environment. And I think in this case, we're too complex of an organization to have you just be an army of one. And I think you are an amazing army of one, go find an army of one project.

This person had now had three or four jobs since that interview, all lasting two or three years. All leading to abrupt endings due to the person's soft skills. The reason why they have not been able to evolve is not because they're not smart enough. It's because they refuse to have the vulnerability exactly as you said to reinvent themselves.

That is harder than developing the skill. And that is the reason why we're having this conversation.

Carly: what is your advice then for people to, cause it seems like, like you said, mindset, growth mindset, all of this is so integral to tapping into it, changing it, working on it. And we've seen even with Rachel, right? She mentioned the imposter syndrome. She's scared. She's scared of if she's, you know, unemployed in the job market.

What's your advice to tapping into that element of it, of being more vulnerable, of having a growth mindset? How do you change that?

Nikhyl: You may not be able to. Because you're essentially saying is how do you grow courage? How do you open yourself to vulnerability? I just prefer you to ending in this place. Then I don't believe I can change my strength or I don't think this environment is right for me or this is who I am. Those things aren't the right conclusion.

The right conclusion is I don't believe I have the soft skills necessary. To change who I am, and I'm just going to maximize my career within that constraint. I'm like, great. Just leave it there. I'm okay with that as the conclusion, but I'm not okay with coming to me and saying I've stuck in my career.

I don't know why. And it must be because of other. That I'm not okay with it's usually you are unwilling to make the change and you don't have the courage and that would be a great conclusion for people that are sitting here. It's like, look, I could try it, but I don't want to I could go have that conversation with my boss, but I'm just uncomfortable with it, and then that person.

Will end up leaving this company and they will find themselves stuck in a job search and they will find themselves stuck in a job search, not because they didn't have the skills to be hands on in this example, because they didn't have the skills to reinvent themselves and recognize that was a growth, not a step backwards.

Carly: And it seems like it's even reaffirming the notion of like, you'll plateau because being in the job search, you'll probably get hired because of your strengths. And then it'll start to unveil once you're there for, you know, a year or two years and the

Nikhyl: Correct.

Carly: happens.

Nikhyl: And you have no idea. You can look on LinkedIn. You can see it in people quick, quick, quick, quick, quick rise, leadership, short tenure, short tenure, short tenure, short tenure, short tenure, great companies,

Carly: so then given that, it seems like the best way to really tackle your super shadows is while you're employed, while you're at work. Is that right?

Nikhyl: You have to have live ammunition because you need that consistent feedback to yourself to know you're on the right track. The thing that I want people to realize is when you actually start practicing a slightly different way of leading, in this example, slightly counter, opposite of the way you were working before, you know, Hey, I was really very analytical, but here I'm going to be a little bit more opinionated.

And then try to use data to support my argument, but not be, you know, more data informed as opposed to data driven as an example, people will come out of the woodwork and support you because if it's a real problem, they've kind of been frustrated, but they've lived with it. And when you signal to people that I want to do something different, people are like, wow, that's a really courageous thing for a leader to do.

And then when you do it well. You will get so much positive feedback, you're going to be very, very excited about continuing that way. You're not going to be doing this in the shadows because you're now all in the light. People are like, we want to support you. We love this version of you. And that's what people don't realize is the number of positive comments will be a huge fuel to your confidence in making this change.

Carly: I think that's also just what's so incredibly powerful And we said this, but giving permission to people, to say what they truly feel or to give you that feedback. Whereas before I think there's, there's definitely blockers.

Nikhyl: that's right. I mean, I remember I was at an offsite with my leadership team and I kind of got frustrated with one of the leaders and I was like really frustrated because they didn't understand the, you know, product management and our function and all this other stuff. And I laughed from the conversation, frustrated.

Everyone was a little frustrated. I had this vision that like, look, I'm the enabler of change around here. You hired me to change this place. You folks are not giving me the right permission. You're not giving me the opportunity. Guy that I trusted on leadership team, one of my allies, one of my friends, basically said, Hey, can we do a quick call afterwards?

And I was like, yeah, sure. Happy to do it. You did a cool call. And he's like, look, I know you're frustrated with others, but this is all on you. And I'm like, what are you talking about? It's like, look, you're consistently moving so fast and you're being such an aggressor. You're not bringing people along.

And because of that, no one's really excited about what you're trying to do. And so you're failing to explain yourself and to work with us in a collaborative way. And I'm your friend. I'm into it. I understand what you're saying. It's just, you're not doing the work to slow down and bring others along. And you're not also compromising.

You see yourself in this way. But it's actually not the way that this position is required. So this is just my feedback. It was a 12 minute conversation. So I was like, I put down the phone and I'm like, Hey, I really appreciated this feedback. So that was my immediate reaction. Wasn't like, Oh, you don't understand.

I was like, no, no. Okay. I trust this guy. My manager's never said anything to me. I trust what this guy's saying. Next day, I went in and I said, Hey, you know what? In the leadership team, I've gotten some feedback. I want to let people know that if they're open to having a conversation, I could, I'm open to changing my approach because I definitely could see.

where this feedback is coming from. Lots of leaders came to me that week. Hey, you know what? We really appreciated the courage of you saying this. I have a lot of alignment and I agree with a lot of the sentiment of the concern that was marked like, wow, really? And then I'm like, well, okay, you know what, now that I know I'm going to take a slightly different approach, I'm going to be a little bit more kind of slow down, explain myself and then be open to other people's feedback three months later.

Everybody in the leadership team thought we were crushing it. It was literally just a 12 minute conversation and realization. My counsel is I should have been looking there as opposed to being surprised because it could have gone way dark, way fast. That's what I'm hoping people do.

Carly: Exactly. Okay, that's perfect. And that's, I think, the overall lesson goal here from this episode, which is like, you were lucky to have that friend who came to you, you know, and then you opened your eyes a bit, and that was your forcing function. But here, you know, in Rachel's case, and I think in a lot of people's case, you know, there's some little signs happening, there's some feelings that are off, but at the end of the day, now it's really up to Rachel to take that agency and say, like, okay, let me dive into my super shadows, what's And let me now go forth to the team and saying, this is what I think I need to work on.

And I want to try approach in a different way. What do you guys think? And then getting that feedback.

Nikhyl: You captured it perfectly.

Carly: Perfect. So what did we miss? What is something that you wish we covered? Or at least that you wanted to share before we wrap up?

Nikhyl: , I do think that. I have a lot of empathy for leaders who are going through this because of the subtle nature of the work. I do think our industry is changing quite a bit so that if you had a hidden shadow, you are now perhaps seeing that shadow kind of really come back and bite you.

Like, and as I said before, you would eventually caught up with you, but it's maybe catching up with people way faster. So my hope is that by listening to this episode, people are like, look, I'm not going to fear the change in the environment. I am at a job. I know that I have a issue that's going to be more problematic.

What is a shadow will become much more prominent. I want to take an opportunity to get feedback and work on it in this setting. Where I have some air cover and time as opposed to having to work on it on my own in between gigs and not be able to have a credible story of how I balance my strength with some of the classic shadows.

And perhaps this is an interview question, just kind of flipping it around. If you're interviewing someone and you know, they have a strength, but this is what I do. I spend all the time on all the shadows. every interview, they're like, Oh, we're hiring a person that does this. That must be good in this example of data or creativity or entrepreneur, whatever it is, management.

I'm like, Oh, I'm going to introduce someone with this strength area. I bet you, they're going to struggle with this other stuff. I'm gonna spend all their time trying to figure out how they approach all the things that are now, how are you collaborative, you know, give me examples of where you were collaborative and where it ended up leading to you having to slow down, even though you're a really fast driver.

And they'll be like, I mean, that's a silly question because I just don't do that. I'm like, okay, that's going to get them, you know? And that's what I was there. So just put yourself in this mindset that, Hey, this is normal. Get better at it. Don't get afraid. Don't be an imposter.

You've succeeded for good reason. This is an advanced model of like, you have to get through this. And when that mindset with that signal, I think you can have a fabulous unlock to your career. And hopefully this episode will prove to be an unlock. I will tell you that when we did this episode two years ago, I have had so many people come to me and said, this was a

massive unlock. It was a 60 minute podcast episode that proved to be an unlock because it's a mindset and a recognition issue. It's not a skill development issue and many of them have it. They just have never been unlocked just like me and my 12 minute conversation. So that's my hope is people come to you Carly and me and say, hey, this changed my life.

This changed my career with something as simple as this recognition.

Carly: That's awesome. I love it. I think it will.

Nikhyl: All right. Well, thanks again for the episode. Uh, hope people enjoy it and we'd love to get feedback, particularly if you do have a superpower and you're struggling with the shadow. Please submit, please let us know. We will love to tackle this episode in a future mailbag, because I think it's such a common and subtle issue for our leaders. Thanks Carly.

Carly: Thank you.